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Post by Sawslig Steve. And William. on May 3, 2011 10:53:46 GMT
Not really... Viruses can replicate themselves, but they can't mutate at total random.
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Post by Byamarro on May 3, 2011 11:02:32 GMT
"Not really... Viruses can replicate themselves, but they can't mutate at total random." There are some viruses who can ^.^
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Post by Matt on May 3, 2011 11:06:11 GMT
computer viruses do not mutate at random.
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Post by Byamarro on May 3, 2011 11:34:59 GMT
"polymorphic viruses - viruses that do not have known. virus signature (a piece of code that makes your antivirus program can easily find a virus) - these viruses contain a code generator and mutate with every infection." There is too possible that when computer virus reproduce himself there can be errors when he replicating and virus source will be changed. It happens very often in this way new types of computer viruses appears.
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Post by Sawslig Steve. And William. on May 3, 2011 11:46:23 GMT
... Okaaay. If you say so. I'm not so sure about some of that, though... For instance, with the polymorphic viruses, it's only a specific part of them that mutates, within parameters. From what I can gather it's just essentially a random number generator, not a mutation.
But nonetheless, even if you take it as mutation (which it isn't)... There's no sexual reproduction. Which is pretty important in mutation. It can occur asexually, which is what you're talking about, but it's impossibly slow.
Also this is still bits and bytes. It couldn't take a physical form, and thus no robo-humans.
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Post by Byamarro on May 3, 2011 12:08:26 GMT
"But nonetheless, even if you take it as mutation (which it isn't)... There's no sexual reproduction. Which is pretty important in mutation. It can occur asexually, which is what you're talking about, but it's impossibly slow." There are no any sexual cells in nature. Normal bacteries etc. using asexual reproduction. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction"Also this is still bits and bytes. It couldn't take a physical form, and thus no robo-humans." So let's say cyber-humans. Syntetic Intelligence
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Post by Sawslig Steve. And William. on May 3, 2011 13:16:34 GMT
Actually there are some sexual bacteria. They reproduce using a sex pilus. Basically a tiny, tiny penis. Some are both sexual and asexual.
I know asexual bacteria mutate. But as I said, it's much, much slower than sexual reproduction.
But the kind of mutation you're talking about still doesn't happen in software. Nothing truly random happens in software.
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MERRY CROMBMAS!
Marmadyke
In my special places.
2%
whoever thought of l?estosterone is a genius, its a brilliant name
Posts: 496
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Post by MERRY CROMBMAS! on May 3, 2011 13:30:12 GMT
Oh fuck. Alright, you brought this by yourself. I belived evolution theory (Yes, that is still only theory), but short time ago i just thinked, and now I don't belive that. It's completly nonsense that thunder made capable of reproduction microbes who was have completed RNA/DNA and it evolved into human. Here's how it started. You had this thing called primordial soup. There, you had stuff like amino acids which then formed primitive life that then reproduced by mitosis. It's a form of reproduction that halves the original cell into two identical ones, that then grow until another mitosis occurs. The problem is that with this method of reproduction there isn't any mixing between genomes, which ultimately results in no evolution. The only thing they had going for them was the sun's radiation (there was no ozone layer back then) and solar flares. These inflicted massive amounts of radiation on the poor single-celled organisms, thusly creating mix-ups in the DNA structure of a cell. When a cell that has been irradiated reproduces by mitosis, it doesn't produce the exact same replica of itself. It causes all sorts of weird mutations, very oftenly to bad effect. Still, given a billion years and several trillion organisms being irradiated, there's surely something good that can happen. Obviously, it did. A new reproductive method appeared. It was called sexual reproduction. It needed at least two cells to work, which resulted in their genomes getting mixed, forming a new genome every time they reproduced. Then, another amazing thing happened, natural selection. Cells that evolved certain features by mutation that gave them an upper edge in surviving and/or reproducing automatically reproduce more. Their "good" features then got more and more elaborated. One branch of single cells thought of hanging together, forming something thats called a volvox (it might be called different in English, dunno). It involved a group of cells making a circle out of themselves, trapping water inside (at that time, life was explicitly present underwater, because there was too much radiation on the surface) for better feeding efficiency or something (not sure here). Note that we KNOW these things existed, because we actually find living specimens as well as several billion years old remnants. The volvox then accepted new single-celled organisms into its sphere, due to something called symbiosis(a union of at least two organisms helping each other survive. Natural selection greatly improved their relations). As such cells got more and more complicated, certain "walls" came into existence, aided by natural selection, separating some parts of the cell from the other. Soon, a cell got its own digestion compartment, sexual compartment, photosynthetic compartment and others. These compartments eventually separated from the cell itself, reproducing by themselves a new method, called meiosis (link here as I cbf explaining something I don't know all about). And that's how multi-celled life formed. Mutation caused by radiation isn't needed anymore, as now you have sexual reproduction that leads evolution on its own. Natural selection now takes over. Doesn't it sound more likely and scientifically provable than any of your theories? Do You know what is evolution? Evolution are random DNA mutations. Are you really belive that microbe can evolve to human by RANDOM mutations? It' like saying that factory can become city by random abrasion cogs and circuits in electronics. No. That is a wrong explanation. Evolution isn't being led by mutations anymore. I explained that in my upper paragraph. It' like saying that factory can become city by random abrasion cogs and circuits in electronics. Misconception detected. Abrasion cogs and circuits don't have amino acids in them. They have no genome, no way of storing information in themselves. For that reason, they are not prone to mutation. They hardly change their molecular state if irradiated. The point being, that stuff isn't alive. Because it's not organic. Then let's say internet. If there will not be any human who use internet (so let's say that humans will die, now there is just internet web with millions of computers), are You fondling that computers (by random mutations of their softwares by on example electromagnetic impulses) can become robo human? No. Computers have no way of doing that stuff on their own. They cannot move, they cannot think outside of their programmed world. They also aren't prone to mutation. They aren't organic. Yes, computer viruses can. What computer viruses on the other hand can't do, is change the molecular state of a computer. They are just electronic impulses. They mean nothing. There are some viruses who can ^.^ Doesn't matter. They're just electronic impulses. Already explained in the above paragraph. So let's say cyber-humans. Syntetic Intelligence So, humans die out, and magically become alive again, being outfitted by computers that operate with the need of electricity which wouldn't exist even 2 weeks after humans disappear? Yeah, computers cannot move themselves. They can't do anything outside making worthless electrical signals. Ahh, finally done. Mut, amidoinitrite?
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Post by Sawslig Steve. And William. on May 3, 2011 13:41:25 GMT
Glad SOMEONE did that. Cheers bro. Glad you didn't try to explain meiosis. That one takes a while to get through.
Actually, what he's saying is a program with sentience, not anything physical. I hope.
But what he doesn't realise is that proper mutation doesn't occur in computer programs... Because we don't have sophisticated enough technology to introduce true, proper randomness... Even random number generators follow certain rules and work within constraints. No virus could ever mutate into anything sentient. Especially because computer software lacks the physical ability to conjoin using something like collagen, like those early bacteria did. Though I suppose they could theoretically work together.
Basically, computer programs are pure logic. Even the seemingly random ones. This defies evolution. The idea of a truly random computer program is [another] holy grail of software sciences.
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Post by Byamarro on May 3, 2011 13:53:28 GMT
That is simple bacteria. You really belive that thunder hited a soup of acids etc. And KABUUUUUM! live organism with completed DNA is created (or TNA, or RNA or PNA there are many versions of genetic mediums)? 1 WRONG IN GENETIC MATERIAL AND WE CAN DIE, So you think that thunder made perfectly genetic material + this primitive life was can reproduct. Show me puddle what can reproducting after this puddle will be hit by a thunder. Yes it's mutations + genomes mixing by sexual reproduction. But first there was mutations. If first there was mutations then how male and female was created? One cell divided to male and female? So it double mutated? In meiozis, genetic material is copied, and one is still original. So only one cell was can to be changed after meiozis. So it mean that one cell meiozed into female, and other cell meiozed into male what is IMPOSSIBLE that these 2 cells evolved and their mutation fit to them and made new reproductive system. There are on example factory robots. And You says that we at the begin was acid puddle... Acid puddles mean nothing... Doesn't matter. You think that We was just acid puddle. Already explained in the above paragraph It was example of alternative life form in virtual space. In this example electricity problem don't exist because it don't matter.
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MERRY CROMBMAS!
Marmadyke
In my special places.
2%
whoever thought of l?estosterone is a genius, its a brilliant name
Posts: 496
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Post by MERRY CROMBMAS! on May 3, 2011 14:00:24 GMT
Dunno about you, but I find evolution rather logical. Good feature comes up, species flourishes. And other stuff.
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Post by Matt on May 3, 2011 14:01:31 GMT
soo what yer saying is organic things dont evolve but inorganic ones do?
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Post by Byamarro on May 3, 2011 14:04:08 GMT
Organic and unorganic things can evolve. But IMHO that is nonsense that everything come from pre-bacteria. And that this bacteria come from super ultra magical puddle hitted by magical Gandalf's thunder.
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Post by Sawslig Steve. And William. on May 3, 2011 14:15:23 GMT
That's not what happened! Primitive cells took billions of years to evolve. They didn't just spring into being when thunder hit a puddle-- though that's one theory for the origins of metabolism.
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Post by Byamarro on May 3, 2011 14:21:31 GMT
To evolve, primitve life was must to have genetic material. So how it created? I don't know any natural thing what can make something complicated like genetic material
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